Arizona All Nissan Club

General Discussion => Guns => Topic started by: Hammer (Avi) on January 20, 2013, 03:03:36 PM

Title: Obama's gun laws
Post by: Hammer (Avi) on January 20, 2013, 03:03:36 PM
I'm curious what you guys think about Obama's new gun regulations.  I have read through them and most of them make good sense.  The majority deal with improving back round checks and the transfer of information to the govt from Doctors, and other agencies.  Also, allowing the ATF to do it's job, I saw a report that said that something like 90% of criminals get firearms from 1% of the shops.  If that is the case wouldn't it make sense to shut those shops down?  Also, I like the fact that they want to make funds available to train first responders and school officials in dealing with these situations.  What I would also like to see is mandating that schools allow school officials to CC.  Here is the  list (http://www.scribd.com/doc/120650573/White-House-Gun-Violence-Reduction-Executive-Actions). 
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: fangars on January 20, 2013, 04:54:39 PM
First thing we all have to realize is who Obama is and what it is he wants.
He is not a fan of the Constitution, especially the first two amendments.

Once you know what his end game is you can pretty much expect that his orders are written to look good on the surface, but when you start seeing how they will be implemented, that is when you will see the erosive effects on our liberties.

If I had the time to enumerate each executive order and detail exactly how each will go deliberately wrong for the people I would but I have to get back out there and weld.
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: paintsnow on January 20, 2013, 08:02:51 PM
Fangers, I wish I could carry a little mini you around to debate liberals when they try to challenge me! So much knowledge and sense comes from your posts.

Fangers for President!!!
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: AZXterra410 on January 20, 2013, 08:06:30 PM
I couldn't care less tbh.

And yes I own a gun.
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: AZXterra410 on January 20, 2013, 08:07:15 PM
To expand on that I will state what I tell people all the time. How has this changed your life?

Answer is - It hasn't because nothing has changed yet.

So everyone calm down
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: sunny1881 on January 20, 2013, 08:20:12 PM
^ True, but what may happen and may be passed into federal law can and will affect the whole country. So when do you fight it? After the fact after it is passed into law? Ahh, no, thats not a very good strategy, much harder to change laws that already exist then to change them before they are passed and implemented to begin with.
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: Hammer (Avi) on January 20, 2013, 09:00:42 PM
First thing we all have to realize is who Obama is and what it is he wants.
He is not a fan of the Constitution, especially the first two amendments.

Once you know what his end game is you can pretty much expect that his orders are written to look good on the surface, but when you start seeing how they will be implemented, that is when you will see the erosive effects on our liberties.

If I had the time to enumerate each executive order and detail exactly how each will go deliberately wrong for the people I would but I have to get back out there and weld.

I think this is a fairly biased argument to make, to twist everything around until it suits your individual political beliefs.  The general fear that, because he is liberal means he is coming for my guns seems unfounded and unfair.  Next you'll start talking about his reverend 20 years ago or his birth certificate.

I think I could make a much stronger argument that president Bush deteriorated our individual liberties much more then Obama ever will, but lets put that aside.  If you look at the text, as it has been written, to me it looks like pretty standard and forthcoming.       
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: AZXterra410 on January 20, 2013, 09:09:32 PM
Cant we just work out a system to keep track of guns better? Make it harder to get em, make them be registered to individuals...
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: paintsnow on January 20, 2013, 09:13:48 PM
The fed .gov has been screwing the pooch for a long time now.

And its not just gun control.

Banning magazines...people say it doesn't infringe/disarm you, but mags are meant to be wear items/disposable. It would be like banning clutches and torque converters and saying they are not infringing your use of vehicles, and that they can still be passed down. Until the market dries up and the ones in existence break and wear down. Why is it that 10 is the magic number for rifles, but shotguns are limited to 5?
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: Hammer (Avi) on January 20, 2013, 09:20:10 PM
I certainly don't agree with a lot of the stuff Jon Stewart is saying but he did a bit about how the ATF has been stripped of it's ability to enforce any laws by a Congressman who added a rider into a budgetary document.  That Congressman then got an award from the NRA and now the NRA's argument against gun control is that we need to enforce the laws already on the books.  So, politics as usual.   
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: AZXterra410 on January 20, 2013, 09:46:39 PM
The magazine argument is a dumb one... Large magazines are more cumbersome and it takes what...3 seconds to drop a mag and put a new one in? So boo hoo, just get 2 10 round mags instead of 1 twenty...
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: Hammer (Avi) on January 20, 2013, 09:56:28 PM
The argument that they will have trouble changing mags is just weak sauce.  Usually these guys have back packs full of ammo. 
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: paintsnow on January 21, 2013, 02:03:20 AM
The magazine argument is a dumb one... Large magazines are more cumbersome and it takes what...3 seconds to drop a mag and put a new one in? So boo hoo, just get 2 10 round mags instead of 1 twenty...

The point is they are slowly etching away at our freedoms. Next it will be 7, then 5, then 3, and finally 1.

The laws are pointless, and as you said, it does not take long to reload, actually closer to .5 second, so why waste budget on pointless laws. Maybe it would be better to focus on things that might actually make a difference.
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: fangars on January 22, 2013, 10:05:19 PM

First thing we all have to realize is who Obama is and what it is he wants.
He is not a fan of the Constitution, especially the first two amendments.

Once you know what his end game is you can pretty much expect that his orders are written to look good on the surface, but when you start seeing how they will be implemented, that is when you will see the erosive effects on our liberties.

If I had the time to enumerate each executive order and detail exactly how each will go deliberately wrong for the people I would but I have to get back out there and weld.

I think this is a fairly biased argument to make, to twist everything around until it suits your individual political beliefs.  The general fear that, because he is liberal means he is coming for my guns seems unfounded and unfair.  Next you'll start talking about his reverend 20 years ago or his birth certificate.

I think I could make a much stronger argument that president Bush deteriorated our individual liberties much more then Obama ever will, but lets put that aside.  If you look at the text, as it has been written, to me it looks like pretty standard and forthcoming.       

It's not twisting anything, it is no great mystery who Obama is, no mystery in what he believes and you can go back yourself and see how he votes on such issues as personal liberties.

I hardly care for the horse race between two big government creeps like Bush and Obama as far as who has eroded more liberties, but those that were eroded by Bush, are not being restored by Obama. I submit that Obama is carrying on Bush's legacy like no other president would.

Facts are facts and you can look back at what how he has performed on the personal liberties without worrying about your own or my political views, Obamas history speaks for itself. You can look at the people he surrounds himself with, and what their beliefs are and actions have been. How the executive orders are written now may or may not have any resemblance to the actual implementation.
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: Hammer (Avi) on January 22, 2013, 11:03:03 PM
I am not trying to debate in regards to what you think he will do based on a so called history of facts.  As you say the facts speak for themselves and Obama had not made a single move to further enforce gun laws or better regulate gun ownership until this most recent event.  However, the NRA has been claiming that he has been working against gun ownership, claiming he would come and take your guns away since before he won the primaries.  With no evidence to back up these claims.  This is standard politics and fear mongering.  Since this is the first measure Obama has made in regards to gun laws, I find it hard to believe that anyone knows what his plans are unless you just got done talking with him about it.  The reality is that I am very curious to see how this goes.  I would like to see the ATF doing its job, I would like to see armed guards in schools, and I would like to see teachers trained to carry and use firearms.  As much as I hate to say it, it has been the NRA and the Republican party that has blocked these things from happening up till now.  So no, I'm not scared that anyone will ever come and take my gun away, but I would like to see it managed better.       
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: fangars on January 24, 2013, 01:32:27 AM
Not "so called history of facts" but actual history, actual facts.

He has never been a fan of the Constitution as written and of all the amendments the 2nd is the one you can find the most information about as to how he believes, feels and acts. Not how I believe, feel or act, but how he actually has voted, how he has actually been quoted and how he has chosen his administration.

It does not matter whether or not you are trying to debate in regards to facts. It only matters that he will indeed act as he believes and his beliefs have not changed one bit in all  his political life.

As far as the NRA and their claims, all they have to know is the same facts you and I have to base our own votes, assumptions and hopes on.

All of those facts are there for the mining, you can look them up, how he as voted in the past, all that he has said in the past and all the people he chose to surround himself with to create and enforce executive policy with.

Even the most shallow depth of research towards that end will bring you to the only conclusion possible, he is not a pro-rights president.

I am not a NRA guy, I am not a republican, and I despise the idea of anyone assuming these two groups of clowns would who I would choose to represent me and my natural born, inalienable rights that are enumerated in the Constitution in plain, easy to understand, ENGLISH.

This is not Obama's first bout with gun laws or even his first bout with Constitutional rights. He believes, in his own words, that our rights can and should be regulated.

As far the ATF doing its job, THERE SHOULD NOT EVEN BE AN ATF in existence.

As far as a gun grab, or confiscation, this is not an efficient way to get rid of guns, the efficient way is how they have been doing it for over a hundred years. They chip away, the make little things illegal and create arbitrary laws as to how long barrels can be, how many rounds can be in a magazine, whether or not a pistol grip can be there, just how scary looking a rifle is allowed to be and with all these arbitrary, incremental, meaningless regulations and laws the window of what is considered "common sense gun laws" is constantly moving towards the elimination of meaningful gun ownership by the populace.  The progressives have been playing the long game on this for a while now and Obama knows it, he will not over reach on this as he did health care because he knows there is a huge difference to many between getting "free stuff" compared to confiscation of the private property of a lot of government dependant white trash "Boone County" types who would otherwise support him, that is unless there was some kind of appreciable reward that would appeal to those people at the time over their right to "feel" rather then actually be independent.

You seem to be arguing this topic as if the present Obama and his present administration exist in a vacuum, a bubble in time that is just trying to feel out the situation as if it has no preconceptions as to how they feel or think about the Bill of Rights and the 2nd Amendment in particular, yet any research you will do should you be willing would show you all  you need to know as to how they will move and how they will rule.

The "lets wait and see" attitude will not work any better now then it did for the Jewish community, Gypsies, and those afflicted mentally and physically during Adolf's reign over conquered Europe, and before you dismiss this as hyperbole you should remember one thing, Adolf did not take over, he was elected. He was a socialist who believed in a strong and empowered central government, and he was elected. The whistle blowers of the time were ignored and viewed as kooks at that time just as they are now, just as they were at the founding of this country and so it will be at the fall of this country.

We no longer live in a comfortable financial margin in which a "lets wait and see" attitude can be a healthy way to view our current situation as citizens, or as nations. Our spending habits, the world's spending habits, are about to bring everything we think we know into question, and I say this knowing full well that my utterances can affect my own bottom line and ability to survive.

We no longer live in a world where every issue can be argued in a bullshit "left vs right" construct. We live in a world where left and right are just flavors of tyranny, and you can choose one if you like, but I choose neither. The only political spectrum that matters to me is liberty vs tyranny and where you choose to live on that line has no left or right, it only has degrees of how much tyranny you think is comfortable enough to live under once you leave the extreme liberty end. I myself am an extremist, I believe in small and efficient government, and the most expanded natural individual rights possible, and those rights are only made possible with the inclusion of gun ownership. Without that we are at the whim of the ruling class, no matter what side of this bullshit right vs left spectrum they appear to be on.
Title: Re: Obama's gun laws
Post by: AZXterra410 on January 24, 2013, 08:07:28 AM
Independent of what has been said, you have to take into account the difference between State and Federal law. We live in perhaps the most pro-gun state in the US, or one of the most. If Obama does pass new gun laws that restrict ownership or magazines or whatever, the state can still manuever around these bans. Look at the states as it is now, they swing HUGELY in different directions regarding gun control. And if you dont think that a state can circumvent federal law, look at the marijuana debate. Federally illegal, but you can still walk into denver and get some...

So as an Arizona citizen, we can still vote to keep things at a state level if Obama enacts new laws.

Thats why I am not worried about it atm.